The comments on this

"Why is this coming, I would never use it" type comments. Same bullshit I hear spouted when that Adobe petition started. Just becust you would never use OneDrive or Photoshop does not mean other people would or even should feel the same. FOSS elitism needs to stop

omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/02/insync

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@LibertyPaulM it seems absurd to me to describe a desire to keep a FOSS operating system FOSS as "elitism".

Also the idea that someone wanting to do/use something puts it beyond criticism is... interesting.

@uoou Keeping the FOSS OS FOSS is different to choosing to use non FOSS tools on top of it. I use Steam a lot and thats not FOSS but I still use it on a FOSS OS.

People should use what they want and stop being so judgemental of what other people choose to use

@LibertyPaulM In a world of absolute moral relativism then sure. But that's not our world.

People object to such things because they feel that they have real world political, social and moral ramifications. You may not agree with that - and are free to argue your case - but to wish that they not air perfectly rational concerns is questionable.

I mean *really* fucking questionable if you just extrapolate that thesis even just a little.

@uoou I just don't want to be made to feel shitty because I choose to use proprietary software that fits my needs better than any of the open source alternatives, that's all

@LibertyPaulM @uoou I’m probably going to be yelled at too, but imho so long as someone has been made aware of the alternatives their choices afterwards are down to them.

They spent money on their computer, and they’re the one that’s going to be using it everyday. So it’s their choice.

@bobstechsite @LibertyPaulM And how far does this "just let people do what they want" philosophy extend?

Hyperbollically, I fancy doing some murders. Looks like fun. That cool?

If someone believes something is harmful - and that belief rests on a coherent and rational philosophy - then why shouldn't they seek to criticise and deter it?

Should climate lobbyists just shut the fuck up too?

@uoou @LibertyPaulM that’s a fine collection of straw men you just argued with there!

@bobstechsite @LibertyPaulM I acknowledged the hyperbole but there's no straw man.

In all cases there's a group of people behaving a certain way and another group who believe - rationally - that the behaviour is harmful.

Please explain where the straw man is.

@uoou @LibertyPaulM I was very tempted to say “no. LOL”. But I’ll indulge you.

I said: if someone buys a computer then they’re grown ups that can weigh the pros and cons for themselves.

You said: BUT WHAT IF WE ALL THOUGHT LIKE THAT AND DIDN’T FIGHT INJUSTICE AND HAD NO LAWS AND JUST LET CLIMATE CHANGE HAPPEN. YOU ARE RIDICULOUS!

@bobstechsite @LibertyPaulM

The point - which you've still not addressed - is that certain behaviours are harmful. FOSS people believe that proprietary software is harmful, just as climate change scientists believe that burning fossil fuels is harmful and... pretty much everyone believes that doing murders is harmful.

All of those beliefs are founded in rational, coherent philosophies.

That's not a straw man. It's not even really reductio ad absurdium. It's argument by analogy.

@uoou @LibertyPaulM that’s your point, but I’ll address it.

If free software went away, we’d *only* have expensive computer products that impose restrictions on us and profiteering monopolies to choose from. That would suck, but life would continue.

If the climate goes away, we all die. If the rule of law goes away, there’s anarchy and death.

Can you accept people may have different views on different issues, and prioritise some issues higher than others?

@bobstechsite @LibertyPaulM So there's (arguably) a quantitative difference, sure. That doesn't really advance any argument.

As to your question: I'm not arguing for the restriction of anyone's behaviour - you are. People should be free to use all the proprietary software they want. And people who believe that that is harmful should be free to say so.

And, ideally, people would discuss differences and maybe learn something. Rather than telling the other side they're not allowed to comment.

@uoou @LibertyPaulM if that’s the argument you thought either of us was making, I can see why you’ve been so angry.

In summary: there’s a difference between saying “that’s not the best solution imho, but I accept peoples’ right to choose” and “anyone who uses this is harming themselves and other people”.

Someone’s private use of OneDrive doesn’t impact you unless they try and share a document. In which case you can tell them to bog off or send it by email instead. 🤷‍♂️

@bobstechsite @LibertyPaulM You can argue that *you* don't believe that proprietary software is harmful and that'd be all well and good.

But to argue - as you seem to be - that the fact that someone made a choice puts them beyond criticism is utterly bizarre.

@bobstechsite @uoou @LibertyPaulM

I’m actually surprised to see this conversation still happening. I thought the whole FOSS elitism thing faded in the aughts. Perhaps I just aged out of that silliness.

Tools are tools and professionals use the best tool for the job. Sometimes that’s FOSS (most of the Internet) and sometimes it’s not (iOS imo).

If political view is part of the selection criteria, well...ok. But it’s usually not for me.

@bobstechsite @LibertyPaulM @uoou Remember, the 0th essential software freedom is:

Freedom to run the program as you wish.

@LibertyPaulM You shouldn't feel shitty! The world is complex and we make compromises. But those compromises should be acknowledged (if you believe in FOSS - if not there's no issue).

We can live in the real world whilst arguing for a better one.

@uoou We should definitely all keep arguing for a better world, just in a way that doesn'y look down on anyone else's choices be they technical, political or whatever. I'm as guilty as anyone of looking down on people for making "the wrong choice" but I want to change that

@LibertyPaulM I'm certainly not in favour of yelling at people that they're wrong.

But the implication that we shouldn't discuss our political differences and seek (collectively) to better educate people as to the facts and thought-frameworks that those beliefs rest upon sounds fucking dangerous to me.

@uoou Again, I am not complaining about the discussions taking place. I am complaining about how they take place and the tone with which they all to often take place. It can be alienating

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