@thor Same to you! This has been enjoyable, thank you.

@thor Aye. Compounded by the undue influence capital has in shaping those laws to begin with...

@thor Of course there'll be a role for private capital for a long time to come but it doesn't seem unreasonable to say that private capital should only be allowed to act when it's in the public good. Difficult to accomplish, of course, but eminently reasonable.

In order to have a government we can trust (to do those big things and act in our interest) we need democracy. Political life was democratised a long time about but economics never was. If we democratise finance and work then I think much of the antagonism between the individual and the state disappears.

Of course we need bottom-up democracy for this to have any meaning. The more remote power becomes the less we can and should trust it.

@thor Yeah, I very much agree with this. There's a palpable feeling, across the developed world really, that things have gone awry. And an accompanying phenomenon of the establishment really not getting it.

@thor I think that's true but I also think that neoliberal capitalism is in crisis. In that it's really run out of ways to make money without getting extremely authoritarian. I think any successful approach must necessarily offer fundamental economic restructuring to have any long term chance of survival.

@thor Germany has the advantage of being a creditor nation and really the nation around which, and to whose economic benefit, the EU is largely organised.

There are definitely problems on the southern and eastern fringes of the EU though. What really matters is whether this all ends up breaking right or left - it's certainly gone distinctly right in some places.

@thor ... even when not fully understood. Metropolitan liberal professionals love the EU and *absolutely cannot understand* why the rest of the country would, in their eyes, intentionally sabotage a system that's working so well.

@thor

Absolutely. The UK's even better if you belong to the capitalist class and make your money through things like asset price inflation (putting things like housing out of the reach of the working class).

I think you've cut right to the heart of brexit with what you said - those EU institutions work very well for the professional class you describe and the capitalist class I mentioned but don't deliver a lot for the working class - a differential that is profoundly felt ...

You're right about capitals but many countries (not all by any means) have a separate financial, political and cultural capitals which at least spreads the power out a bit. London is all three for us and I really don't think that's healthy.

I also can't name any modern Norwegian military misadventures or imperialist shenanigans.

@thor I'm not sure I want us to have aircraft carriers given what we tend to do with them.

I take your points, we certainly punch above our weight culturally.

I guess your point would be (or include) that I can't name many Norwegian actors, scientists, philosophers, landmarks etc.. And you'd be right.

I am aware that Norway has one of the most advanced social democracies in the world and (at least by some measures) *the* most equal economy in the world. And right now I'd value that higher.

@thor Germany's manufacturing industry
is huge, we tanked ours. We only have the relevance (globally) that we do because of our financial sector which is *very* specific to London. Maybe London has some significance but in the rest of the country we certainly don't *feel* important (definitely not a bad thing given our interactions with the rest of the world historically).

What you describe sounds kinda nice though. I mean I get that it feels parochial but there's an honesty to it, too.

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