Thought I'd try as a web app via instead of the standard app. Interesting comparison.

Electron version: 5 processes, total of 132,340 K memory used.

Epiphany version: 1 process, 29,740 memory used.

Trying to stop my battery going flat so fast so I think I'll start trying out more epiphany based web apps.

@kezzbracey for battery you also want as few wake-ups as possible. If you haven't already, check out "powertop".

@dnkl Awesome, thank you. That was my next task, learning how to configure a system for minimal battery drain. I have TLP going already but I knew there must be other options too. I'm looking at powertop output now, will go read up on how to optimize.

@dnkl @kezzbracey you dont happen to have any advice for battery saving on openbsd do you? it does significantly worse out of the box than say arch

@twee @dnkl Unfortunately not, sorry. I haven't even tried bsd yet, though I am curious.

@twee @dnkl Oh, I just realised you were asking @dnkl, not me. Nvm 😊

@kezzbracey @dnkl dont worry about it :)

i do recommend openbsd though, its very refreshing coming from linux imo

which is interesting because linux is refreshing compared to windows. next thing ill be telling you to try 9front and youll be breathing pure oxygen ;)
@kezzbracey @dnkl so if you were to ask someone to suggest a lightweight linux distro, theyd probably say arch or something. lets the user make choices, only 700MB pretty minimal, right?

Openbsd (never used free but net is pretty similar) is 450MB and has enough out of the box for a full desktop experience (albiet a nerd one). it comes with an installer, and enoegh software for me to get valid work done if i so chose (although as you know i prefer emacs - it comes with vi). the bootup procedure is to read a bunch of textfiles and execute them, its very easy to alter, some with daemons.

the system feels more unified than a linux system. im not entirely sure why

when i started using linux, the way it works feels more pleasant than windows, but there are still some rough edges and inconsistences. there are significantly less of these that ive found in openbsd. i hope that makes some kind of sense?

@twee @dnkl Wow that sounds really interesting. What kind of software do you use for your work on the system?

@kezzbracey @dnkl i dont mean to be misleading - i use the same software as i use on my linux desktop.

but the base system comes with tmux, vi, and a window manager. if i was working on a c project i dont need to waste time installing extra stuff.
@kezzbracey @dnkl if you were actually expressing interest, i use emacs for most things, and lua for most other things. also schemes.

i do a bit in c, and enjoy playing with other languages, prolog, tcl, erlang or whatever.

@twee @dnkl Is multibooting with a BSD partition in the mix pretty much the same deal? I'm guessing a lot of the graphics stuff I use might not have BSD versions, but I'd be curious to setup a partition for coding and general use.

@kezzbracey @dnkl i mean youd probably have to mess with the partitions yourself then, but it should be fine yeah

i think youre probably right about the graphics stuff. as a student who messes with obscure languages and writes, ive not hit on those issues :)

@twee @dnkl So which BSD based system do you use, and does it have a live ISO?

@kezzbracey @dnkl i use openbsd, and off the top of my head im not sure. i knew you can drop into a shell, but whether you can test the whole system, im not sure.

its not anyboot though, so if you download it grab the .fs not the .iso

@twee @kezzbracey it does make sense. One reason for me, personally, to try bad would be to get rid of systemd. The number of systemd-free Linux distros is small...

@dnkl @twee I've only just started directly interacting with systemd recently so I have minimal context - what are the reasons for people being unsatisfied with it?

@kezzbracey @twee it's trying to *be* too much, and rewrites/replaces well-tested and established software that doesn't really _need_ to be replaced.

Also it has had a large number of serious (read: security related) bugs.

And it has caused my desktop to stop booting at least twice, with pretty much no other workaround than to wait for a new release.

@dnkl @twee What would you recommend using instead on an Arch setup? Can you use something else?

@kezzbracey @twee you _can_, but not officially. And practically, no, you can't. Better to switch to a non-systemd distro.

An arch-like one is

@kezzbracey yes. while open source software *can* be audited, big projects often arent fully.

systemd has suddenly taken over the majority ofvthe most sensitive parts ofva linux system, and has an unknown amoun of security flaws. as @dnkl says, it has a fair amount of bugs, and does more than it needs to do.

its fine for a lot of people though, dont necessarily listen to the hate (theres a lot of it in linux, and a lot of it is unbased)
@dnkl @kezzbracey i recommend it.

unrelated, but what does "terminal foot" mean in your bio? is it a joke im missing or can i just not search very well?

@twee @kezzbracey it means I use my own terminal emulator, named "foot", which isn't very well known I suppose 😂.

@twee @kezzbracey sorry, no. I don't have much experience with any bsd, unfortunately.

@dnkl @kezzbracey no worries. i never got powertop to successfully build for it, unfortunately.

@kezzbracey we don't do that much in the native process actually except:
1. Notifications
2. Updates
so it shouldn't make a big difference.
We keep websocket open too if there's a logged in window in the background.

I use web app myself, at least for now.

There are couple of things we can optimize for battery life I guess but it was mostly for mobile so far.

@charlag I was pretty much just guessing fewer processes might help on battery, but I've since been told it might not really help.

I'm also trying to move away from Electron in general, and have too many pinned tabs in FF, so it's nice to have another option via Epiphany.

A native app would of course be perfect if that ever came along.

@kezzbracey I think chances are higher that either:
1. We stabilize and document API so that someone else does it or
2. We write IMAP bridge

Neither of which is official position, just me speculating.
Even Electron clients have big maintenance cost because you need to teat a lot of things on a lot of systems, people have no idea how taxing it is for the small team.

@charlag Either of those things would be great. I understand of course that we're all working pragmatically, choosing from among the options realistically available.

I'm also hoping an option 3 emerges: that a project comparable to electron matures as a real alternative for deploying web apps to desktop.

@kezzbracey if it doesn't run on web, it already loses to Electron. We are not in position to give up web.

I see that you're front end dev. You could try poking into the API looking at the client code.

@charlag Yeah another option would need to feature match. Next on my to-do list is to check out this project:

I haven't tested it out, but be it this project or another, something along these lines would be spot on.

@kezzbracey @neb yeah that's cool.
when there'll be UI, notifications and file handling unified, call me again

@charlag @neb Thought you might like to know in case you chat to anyone else looking for an Electron alternative, someone just put me onto this app named Ice:

It lets you create a desktop app out of the Tutanota web client using either Firefox, Chrome, Chromium or Vivaldi. I just set it up using Firefox, and so far it's perfect. Frees up some room in my pinned tab section, uses my browser of choice, spot on.

@kezzbracey @neb but you cannot add native components to it, can you?

@charlag @neb No, it's not a direct Electron alternative. But it's a good replacement for someone like me. Still has desktop notifications so that's all I really need.

@kezzbracey people recommending bsd and getting rid of systemd for battery life, lmao.
First one doesn't have drivers, second one will throw away battery optimizations away.
I just recommend this from one of the Arch developers:

@charlag Thanks for that! Trying to get myself informed on all the pros and cons.

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