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Can we please stop using this proprietary US based service for libre software projects now?

"GitHub starts blocking developers in countries facing US trade sanctions"
zdnet.com/article/github-start

@hund Especially since there is a perfectly good alternative, gitlab

@yisraeldov Selfhosted Gitlab then. Gitlab.com is hosted on the Google Cloud, so that's not the best option either. :/

@hund
Any other good alternatives (not self hosted)? What about Codeberg?
@yisraeldov

@hund @DecaTec Ok, well that is just like using gitea or gogs that someone else is hosting for you. Gitlab.com has pretty good issues and CI .

@hund Well it doesn't have to be hosted on google cloud, I'm assuming that they would change hosts if they found a problem. You can always just push to a repo on an ssh server.

@yisraeldov @hund it wouldn’t really matter where they host. It’s not about the infrastructure it’s about a US company doing business with a sanctioned country. The issue here is really the law is forcing US companies to do this or face serious fines.

@yisraeldov
I have several issues with gitlab, and as said below, it's still not a great alternative.

For private projects I selfhost gitea. But I like the community and social coding on GitHub
@hund

@sexybiggetje @hund What issues do you have with gitlab ? I have found them to be pretty good. And if we care about I would much rather not use a MS product.

@yisraeldov gitlab is ok but very bloated and slow in my experience. I have to restart it every ~12h to keep it working

@hund urgency to get of GitHub approaches that of getting off Twitter. 🤦‍♂️

@hund
Well there first should be a good alternative then. I have lots of issues with gitlab, which is the only alternative. I run gitea for my private projects. The social coding aspect isn't on other platforms.

@sexybiggetje I use notabug.org and.I'm perfectly happy with it. There's also another alternative that I can't think of now.

@hund I'm sorry but I don't see the problem, Russia has literally annexed a part of another country (something mostly unseen since the XIX century) and was sanctioned because of this. They can't buy food from Europe for instance but they should be able to use GitHub?

This is either an issue with all sanctions (whether they work or not, for instance), or not a problem at all, IMHO

@alan @hund yeah, cool, now that our oppressive government annexed it I should not be able to do my work to escape it.
I don't live in Russia anymore but this is kind of weird decision to make. Doesn't hurt P and his friends in any way but hurts people who likely don't support him.

@charlag @hund as I said it's either a problem with sanctions as a whole (which unfortunately tend to affect regular people too much) or not a problem at all.

The point of sanctions is to make damage and try to push people to pressure their government. Whether this works or not is up to debate, but you aren't the only one being affected.

I guess many wine importers for instance had to shut down because of sanctions.

@alan @hund yeah, cool, because everyone loves living in shit and don't pressure government enough, give me a sec, I'll start, just will tell my parents they're going to be tortured.
Sanctions should hit where it hurts. Refuse to deal with P's friends and their businesses, let people use what's left out of the internet.
Food sanctions are made by the government themselves. They just use sanctions as the "look, they're our enemies!" to get away with their shit.

@charlag @hund I completely see the point and I agree with you, but the point is that we can't and shouldn't nitpick sanctions: they're all or nothing.

I disagree with sanctions as much as you because I think they're bad for the population, but we can't appease P, the last time we did WWII happened...

Here the choice is between sanctions and sending a couple nuclear submarines and an aircraft carrier over Crimean shores, so tough decision

@alan didn't I say that it doesn't hurt ruling class at all? They prepare to isolate internet anyway. What a great thing GitHub does to help them.
Find their offshores. Don't buy oil from them. Stop propaganda. Call out government violence. Don't invite them to the table. Hurt them where it hurts instead of harming regular people.

@alan this only hurts the poor folk who have been annexed. Sanctions sometimes work but only on the political level and they always hurt the normal people most. U.S. sanctions are also illegal according to internattional law. All moot points tho as the main thing is censorship resistance and code control.

@almindor implying they couldn't do anything to avoid it or fight it, or am I missing something?

@alan i'm implying that U.S. sanctions against Crimea is completely wrong given Crimea is the victim. Main point tho is that a good source version control should be decentralized and incentivised in such a way to make it immune to any form of censorship or undue control grab attempts.

@almindor I don't remember a Crimean war, there is a Donbass one, but in Crimea business as usual since the referendum.

Did we spare Austria during WWII?

@alan crimea was annexed by russia. The people there had 0 choice in the matter. Also, what does war have to do with this?

@alan
It is not my task to police the world and have opinions on geopolitics. I want to develop software with friends all over the world.

Why should it be okay to punish the people? I assume they are not the problem? It seems to me like a hostage situation. Cut off supplies to the population and when they are desperate enough they will overthrow their government, so that they will once again be allowed to eat bread, drink water and code.

@patchman as I already said, many times over, unfortunately this isn't a matter of fairness anymore.

I was in favor of calling the bluff and sending an aircraft carrier, but guess what, people tend to oppose that. Heck, we even had a "peace" protest against the intervention in Syria, everything while Assad happily kept bombing civilians.

What I'm saying is: staying in a corner whining about Microsoft won't solve the problem. Get up and fight the good fight

@alan
India annexed Goa in 1961 in a very similar fashion and using similar reasoning. The UN responded much in the same way.

People make FOSS software so that whoever needs to use it can use it. I understand that MS can't violate sanctions, but I personally don't like any project I contribute to to be locked down by state level squabbles or disputes.
@hund

@mister_monster @hund great! So let's pressure the right target and go back to coding! Hint: Microsoft isn't the right target

The fun thing is that I agree with all of you, this is shitty. I'm only saying that perspective and the choice of target are very important

@hund I imagine a service based on BitTorrent and Wiki, with git bolted on top. So that it is maximally decentralized, and resistant to vandalism. Because, as an American, I can proudly say "Screw us... this sucks..." God does it suck.

@hund as a complete noob. What is the best alternative?

@hund I'll have to check it out! Thanks for the tip.

@hund could be time for decentralised federated developer collaboration system with code, chat, ticket system

@hund I wounder if they would have done the same if it they weren't owned by Microsoft. :thinkhappy:

@Ghosty @hund Nah, that's just MS licking White House's ass to get that cloud contract for the DoD... ;)

@hund @OdyX Don't worry, everyone's moving over to the open-core reimplementation instead :/

@hund
Every country institutes sanctions such as these, not as simple as "not using us based services" gonna need more than that.

@hund it's a challenge.

I made my thing on Gitlab, then found everyone working in my area was on github.

I doubt they'll move.

@hund
The biggest obstacle to self hosted gitea or gitlab is contributing across self hosted servers.

github.com/forgefed/forgefed (I see the irony) is a project that aims to extend ActivityPub for use with Git.

discourse.gitea.io/t/forgefed- there is some discussion with implementing forgefed in gitea

gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-c there is an issue in gitlab for tracking interest and work on federating.

We will get there.

@mister_monster The account-less way has been working great for comments on blogs for a very long time. Accounts should only be optional if you ask me.

@hund But with regard to contributing to FOSS code, how do you handle pull requests, improvement requests and things like that? You need accounts. About the only think that would work alright without an account is bug reports, and only if the person reporting sends the appropriate logs the first time.

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