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If you are new to linux, please do the universe a favor and don't pick debian as your first distro.

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@Gloriouseggroll I'm also wondering why... Picking a stable distro would be wise for a starter OS...

@matt @Huggles @DorianDotSlash let's masticate what @Gloriouseggroll said:

1. Start
2. Install Linux
3. If newbie, avoid Debian as first choice
4. End

Debian is a "stable" distribution because of not keeping with latest changes of applications. What happens to newcomers is recent applications will not work because libraries are too old.

I have been using Linux for 27 years; still find rpath, .so and module versioning, kernel compiling and LDCONFIG hard.

Debian is advanced linux.

@nergal @matt @Huggles @Gloriouseggroll

Whoa, what? Apps don't work because libs are too old? That doesn't make sense at all... Applications in the repos will match required library versions also in the repos.

Either update your system, or stop downloading pkgs from websites and use the repo.

You should know better if you say you've been using Linux for 27 years, which I say is BS by the way. The first linux kernel was announced 27 years ago and the first distros came out 24 years ago...

@DorianDotSlash @matt @Huggles @Gloriouseggroll and there goes my math... minus 10. Can't blame a guy for feeling old.

Do you expect applications like WINE, Steam or even flatpak for that matter to work with recent changes while using repo versions?

@nergal @matt @Huggles @Gloriouseggroll If you're updating any software on your system without updating the system itself, you should expect problems. Steam is a whole other thing since it's not opensource and it updates itself.

I'm running a Debian-based distro on the testing branch and have all the latest packages, running KDE Plasma 5.13.5, GIMP 2.10, LibreOffice 6, Firefox 62, and so on... All the latest, and super easy to use.

I also run Manjaro which I think is more advanced than Debian

@DorianDotSlash @matt @Huggles @Gloriouseggroll so let's say someone new to a Linux way starts with Debian: what complications would that person face in system maintenance? What is your view of how things are done there compared to specifically, OpenSuse or NixOS?
The last colleague I tried Debian with, we had incompatibility with tmux of all things. There was some change in tmux operations and could not figure how to update it. I did not understand screen then (still have not been using it).

@DorianDotSlash @matt @Huggles @Gloriouseggroll
I remember dpkg-reconfigure offering modification options, but dpkg has a steep learning curve for someone fresh to linux computing, yes?

@nergal @matt @Huggles @Gloriouseggroll Anything offered in the repos should work provided the rest of your system is also up to date. DE's provide update notifications which are regularly checked. You can of course manually check/update anytime using apt (sudo apt update/upgrade)

There aren't many things you should be playing with using dpkg-reconfigure, especially for a new user. Even I would only use it to change display managers once in a while.

@DorianDotSlash @nergal @matt @Huggles

99% of people new to linux don't know/aren't going to have a clue about debian testing. I had a guy yesterday asking me why Vulkan and DXVK wouldn't work on his kernel 4.9 and wine 1.7, lord knows what gpu drivers he was running.

new people should IMO, stick to simple, up to date distros that require minimal user intervention. Manjaro or Ubuntu are both good starts.

@DorianDotSlash @nergal @matt @Huggles to piggy back on this, it's a lot more user-friendly for example, to install wine-staging, update your video card drivers, and update the kernel then be good to go on ubuntu or manjaro, than say installing debian, trying to do the same, realizing libraries are outdated, then upgrading to debian testing and doing the same process all over again.

@DorianDotSlash @nergal @matt @Huggles especially to the newbie who, as I mentioned, probably has no idea about testing

@DorianDotSlash @nergal @matt @Huggles EVEN WORSE is if they have no idea about kernel or driver updates - at least with ubuntu or manjaro, their system will be up to date enough to run most modern games and applications from a fresh install.

@Gloriouseggroll @nergal @matt @Huggles True but saying that, a new user using a new OS shouldn’t expect to get drivers and kernels perfect without doing a bit of research first. It’s not MacOS. There are plenty of resources available to learn about Linux, and that’s the whole reason behind my YouTube channel, for example.

@DorianDotSlash @nergal @matt @Huggles Why do people use Windows? Because it works. Although under the hood is a dumpster fire, people still use it because it works without them having to fuck with it. The same goes with MacOS. The OOTB experience should not rely on users having to do their own research as to why something doesn't work at all, especially if it worked OOTB in windows. This is why proton is popular - it is an OOTB working solution to steam games that is platform independent.

@DorianDotSlash @nergal @matt @Huggles further in regards to proton - even the proton requirements are higher than what debian stable provides.. in which case you're going to have more trouble than say on ubuntu, manjaro, or any other relatively up to date distro OOTB

@Gloriouseggroll @DorianDotSlash @matt @Huggles this reason is second-most. Primary is people were introduced to Windows first. Linux does have an inconsistent OOTB experience.

What I have been pushing to users is to think about the file format for an activity instead of the application to create it (picture?: save to jpeg, not docx; presentation?: it is called a presentation, not a PowerPoint™; save final draft as PDF, don't give me a .doc or .xls; I'll take .doc if it should still be edited)

@DorianDotSlash @nergal @matt @Huggles to clarify, I'm not saying Debian is bad. I'm saying it's not a great end-user desktop experience. Different distros have their use-cases. For example Windows Server is not an end-user desktop OS. Debian is very good for servers, so is CentOS and Redhat, but I would not use any of them for my daily driver.

@DorianDotSlash @nergal @matt @Huggles and tbh with the latest spectre/meltdown etc crap I wouldn't trust debian stable on a server either, at least not with that kernel, much less any other outdated package that may need security updates such as openssh or xorg

@Gloriouseggroll @nergal @matt @Huggles Kernel security fixes are still pushed out as updates. Any fixed-release distro will be dated at some point. Even Ubuntu was dated right before 18.04 came out. That’s the downside of fixed releases in order to gain stability. Rolling releases are the complete opposite.

@DorianDotSlash @nergal @matt @Huggles yes, but my point with ubuntu and manjaro as opposed to debian - you would only need to update kernel and gpu drivers. with debian you're likely looking at upgrading your entire install to testing first

@DorianDotSlash @nergal @matt @Huggles ubuntu *not manjaro, as its rolling release. wheres the edit button when you need it

@Gloriouseggroll @DorianDotSlash @matt @Huggles spectre/meltdown is a hardware problem, yes? Intel's fault. I recall somewhat when they exposed AMT to the world after some group yelled foul (PSP was being used to hack vehicles via bluetooth; Motorola C200 was hacking ATM, so about 2004?(time-challenged here)). There was an article about OpenBSD devs also complaining about it.

It was not a software issue and has embedded itself so solidly to be rectified so quickly (much like SS7 in GSM now).

@nergal @DorianDotSlash @matt @Huggles it is a hardware issue but is software addressable (somewhat). This is why spectre/meltdown mitigation patches were added into the kernel within this past year, as well as on windows. Without those patches, you are vulnerable. This also doesn't include the recent openssh vulnerability and various xorg vulnerabilities in the last two years

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